Conversation with an Atheist (Part 6 of ?)

ATHEIST:  Okay.  So - from what I hear - Islam is, like, the fastest growing religion on Earth.  How are you so sure THAT's not the one true religion?  They seem pretty sure.  Heck, they're willing to behead you for it.

ME:  Yeah - that's not new.  They've been that way since the beginning, starting with Muhammad.  He was all about conquest.  Jesus - quite the opposite.  I talked about the historicity of Muhammad's claims ... 600+ years after Jesus died, one source, tons of contradictions - although later texts are supposed to abrogate or trump earlier texts - and so on.  Also, their growth is not really from consensual conversions.

ATHEIST:  What is that suppose to mean?

ME:  I mean their growth comes predominantly (almost completely) from force and/or from raising large families.  New Christians come from those who choose, on their own, to become Christian.  Of course, Christians have kids, too, but they are rarely if ever forced to stay in the church once they are adults, and CERTAINLY would never feel as though their life was threatened if they chose not to be a Christian.  We're seeing that now in some countries:  pay a tax (for not being Muslim) that you can't pay, or convert to Islam, or be executed.  Bottom line, the two religions are like night and day - some would say "literally".  The "religion of peace" claim - wrong.  The earlier peaceful verses are abrogated by later more violent verses.  This is on of the rules of the Qu'ran.  They're also instructed to lie whenever necessary if it helps to spread Islam, such as telling everyone it's a religion of peace, when the Qu'ran really says to take over the world by all means necessary - by being peaceful at first, until they are a large enough portion of a population to show force.  You should check out a video I watched recently called, "Three Things you May Not Know about Islam".  It's legit and quite revealing.  In essence, the probability that Islam is true is extremely low, but those who are Muslim literally don't know any better.

ATHEIST:  That doesn't mean it's not true, though.  There are Christians who don't know any better, too.

ME:  Very true.  Some Christians are going on mostly or completely blind faith.  They're just lucky that they're inadvertently right [smirk].  I'm just saying Islam being true is not even close to likely.  It's almost ALL faith, no evidence.  But anything - I suppose - is possible.  You see, it's like I was saying with regard to Atheism ... there is no absolute proof of that either.  I mean, there is no proof that God doesn't exist, etc.  ALL world views take faith to some degree.  In fact, one of my favorite books is called, "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be An Atheist" by Norman Geisler.  It really comes down to how much proof is there for one worldview over another?  Atheism - virtually no evidence.  Islam - very little to no evidence (one man's testimony).  Christianity - mountains of unbiased (and some biased, of course) historical evidence.  In a court case, if you had fingerprints on the murder weapon, 500+ witnesses, DNA, receipts, and a video confession, you would say that the guy did it.  There is THAT much evidence for Christianity.  People simply don't look into it, so they don't know this.  The issue is, they won't look into it, generally because they don't want it to be true for some reason, or they think they already know what it is, even though they are way off.

ATHEIST:  Well, you've got me intellectually intrigued.  I'll need to double-check all of what you're saying, but if it's true, it merits further research on my part.

ME:  Are you a reader?

ATHEIST:  Yeah - love to read.

ME:  Here's a good list of books to start with:

• I mentioned Lee Stroebel's "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Christ" already.
• I'd also get my hands on "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, for a more cerebral analysis.
• I mentioned "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be An Atheist" by Norman Geisler. That will address a number of your questions in significantly more detail.
• With regard to Islam vs Christianity, there is an awesome book by Nabeel Qureshi called, "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus: A Devout Muslim Encounters Christianity".
• Virtually any book by Ravi Zacharias is gold.  "The End of Reason" would be a great one for you to pick up, or just watch a few of his talks on YouTube at major secular colleges.

ATHEIST:  Okay - that's enough for now!  Geesh.

ME:  Sorry.  I've just learned so much from so many books - getting ahead of myself.  Anyway, why don't we do this ... you read one of these, then we'll talk.  If you have a book you'd like me to read - say "The God Delusion" or "Undeniable" by Bill Nye, I'm up for that, too.  It can be our own little book club.  That sound fair?

ATHEIST:  It does.  

ME:  Okay.  Let's choose one to start with.

ATHEIST:  How about "The Case for Faith" to start with.  Before I can swallow the whole Jesus thing, I need to understand why any faith in a God of any kind is worth further consideration.  Then I think I might want to go with "Undeniable" if you're up for that.

ME:  Coolio.  Get back together in a few weeks?

ATHEIST:  Let's make it three.

Reader:  Will you continue?  (Next Part coming soon ...)

What is Porneia and What Does God REALLY Say About Marriage?

πορνεία (porneia)

Porneia.  From the Greek root meaning "any type of sexual relation outside of God's intended definition of marriage".  This includes adultery, unmerited divorce, pre-marital sex, incest, watching pornography, and so on.  It is not just about the "hot topic" we seem to discuss ad nauseam today.  And to be clear, I too have sinned in some of the ways listed above.  But I'm forgiven.  So are you, if you accept Christ.  All God asks is that we acknowledge that He says these things are not okay, turn away, and try as hard as possible to sin no more (this is called "repentance" - one of those churchy words).

The concept of two people committing to one another did exist in some form before the writing of the Bible, but that means little.  God introduced it to mankind in the Garden of Eden, LONG before it was ever jotted down on a scroll.  Marriage - according to our Creator - is a reflection of God and His people.  Jesus = the groom.  The Church (us) = His bride (yes, even the dudes).  The basic fact that man and woman are inherently different (although equal) is why marriage exists.  We - as husbands and wives - become "cleaved" together as one flesh, and are intended to be a reflection of the relationship between Jesus and His people.  And this is why Christians have such an issue with redefining the term "marriage".  They have an issue with it because it's defined as God defines it.  Anything else is - inherently - not marriage.  It's something else.  Choose a different word.  This truth - stated by Christians - is stated out of love.  We know what God says about those who choose to continue defying Him.  Christians don't want THAT for anyone.  They do not hate anyone (I certainly don't).  They are not bigots.  And they are not discriminating (I am not).  They are simply following and communicating what God says is true (that's what I do, and what I'll continue to do).

There are two general options we have:  (1) subscribe to what God says and acknowledge that He simply knows best, as our Creator and the writer of the instruction book, even if we don't understand, or (2) Go off of our own personal understanding and feelings, tied to absolutely nothing concrete.  

I used to believe that porn was no big deal.  It was not harming anyone, so what's the problem?  But as I studied God's Word, it struck me that it was NOT a victimless crime.  It altered my relationship with my wife, completely skewing my expectations.  It impacted my relationship with my daughter, with female co-workers, my Mom, my sister ... every woman.  God already knew this before I figured it out.  Bottom line, He knows infinitely more than we do.

Is God Anti-Gay?  by Sam Allberry

I am in the middle of a great book right now called "Is God Anti-Gay" written by a Christian man who has strong same-sex attraction.  He explains it far better than I do.  Spoiler:  God does not hate people who identify as "gay".  Quite the opposite.  So, please, before jumping to conclusions about what Christians think, or how they "hate" (or any other misconceptions), read the book.  It's very well covered.  Bottom line, God loves everyone and so do Christians.  But love also means telling someone the truth.  God did not MAKE us to be a "certain way" that He did not intend.  This is a lie.  He made us ... then the sin in the world makes us do things that are displeasing to Him.  Me included.

Sidenote:  Skip the "people in history used the Bible to support slave ownership, so you're wrong here too..." argument.  Truth is, slavery WAS justified with the twisted use of scripture by some - by Christians and non-Christians alike.  But that was an evil and not what scripture ACTUALLY says.  The bible does NOT support slavery, although it does speak to those IN slavery already.  "The idea that God or Christianity encourages or approves of slavery is shown to be false. In fact, anybody who was caught selling another person into slavery was to be executed. However, since voluntary slavery was widely practiced during biblical times, the Bible proscribes laws to protect the lives and health of slaves. Paul, the author of many of the New Testament writings, virtually ordered the Christian Philemon to release his Christian slave from his service to "do what is proper". In addition, numerous verses from the New Testament show that God values slaves as much as any free person and is not partial to anyone's standing before other people."  Learn more >>

Sidenote 2.0:  You may ask, "Why are Christians so vocal lately about this particular sin?"  Answer:  We wouldn't be if it weren't being shoved down our throats daily.  Frankly, it is no worse than any other sin - seriously.  God hates my stinging sarcasm (It's pride, and I'm working on it) just as much as any sinful sexual act, but I'm not out trying to push everyone to accept my stinging sarcasm as "okay" either.  It's on almost every show, a large percentage of headlines recently, et cetera.  We're being forced to state our beliefs on the subject, and we're conveying those beliefs.  We are on the defensive, sitting here believing what we've believed since God told us thousands of years ago.

In summary, I am no ones judge.  I am equally a sinner, just like everyone else is.  But God is everyone's judge.  There is no getting around that in this life.  So, we - as Christians - can either "mind our own business" and watch those who are not in Christ continue to sin, and ultimately land in hell ... OR we can speak up, in love, and face the backlash from those who think we're somehow hateful.  Because I love, I must choose the latter.

Conversation with an Atheist (Part 5 of ?)

ME:  You get enough to eat?

ATHEIST:  Oh yeah - stuffed.  So, this "new life" stuff.  I've got to be honest - seems a little crazy.  Be honest ... do really believe that?

ME:  Oh yeah.  I not only believe it, I've experienced it.  It's easy to believe when it's happened to you, but it's not always easy to convey a personal experience to someone, especially when they'd prefer not to believe it.

ATHEIST:  So, you had an experience.  Kind of like a alien abduction or something? [smirk]

ME:  Yeah ... no.  So, it's something that you've probably always sensed.  I mean, we aren't this body right?

ATHEIST:  Huh?

ME:  I mean, if you didn't have arms or legs, would you still be you?

ATHEIST:  Yeah - of course.

ME:  How about if you were just a head, and you could somehow still live.  Would you still be you?

ATHEIST:  I suppose.  Where are you going with this?

ME:  My point is ... we're not this shell we live in are we?  We're something more.  You inherently get that, right?

ATHEIST:  Yeah.  I know, the soul or the mind or whatever.  Okay, so what?

ME:  So, the Bible tells us that we were all born into sin.  We will sin and we continue to sin.  This is a fact and no one is exempt ...

ATHEIST:  Yeah, you covered that.

ME:  ... and the wages of sin is death.  Remember that part?  That means that, as long as we are in sin, we are dead ... spiritually.  Our bodies are living, but our spirit is a dead man walking.

ATHEIST:  Sounds pretty depressing.  Pretty hopeless.

ME:  I know, right?  But that's why the good news is so crazy good!  Jesus IS hope.  Jesus died for us so that we can live.  God has his sites on us to pay for our sin, but Jesus took the bullet and then some for OUR sin.  Amazing news, right?  So, through Him, we gain an eternal life.  That eternity doesn't start when we die ... it begins the day we accept Jesus!  And the day I accepted Jesus ... the MOMENT I accepted Jesus, I knew it was true.  I knew it in my mind, my soul, my heart ... The Holy Spirit entered me.  Period.  End of story.  Life has not been the same since then!

ATHEIST:  Wow - you're pretty enthusiastic about this.

ME:  I am!  And ever since I learned the truth, I can't help but talk to people about this.  I want everyone to have what I've found.  If you found out an incredible truth that could change someone's life for the better, wouldn't you want to tell everyone?

ATHEIST:  I suppose I would.

ME:  On that day I accepted Christ, I was literally born again!  The first time I was born, it was physical, through natural processes.  The second time was through the spirit of God.  Now, even though my body will die, I (the real me) will live forever.  I know that sounds like something from a movie, but where do you think they get these ideas?  Something in all of us knows that it's true.

ATHEIST:  I'm not sure I'm liking this.

ME:  Not liking what?

ATHEIST:  You're starting to make sense.  I agree with what you said before:  I'm not sure I want to believe this.

ME:  But if it IS true - which it is - everything is at stake!  If I'm right, you stand to spend eternity without God - in hell.  If you're right ... well, we all lose don't we?

ATHEIST:  I guess that's true enough.  But I have so many more questions.  There are so many more things that just don't make sense to me.

ME:  That's okay, that comes with time.  Just know that there aren't any questions that have not been asked and answered.  Like I said, you don't have to understand everything, and you certainly don't have to be perfect.  I certainly wasn't, and I'm still not.  But I am through Jesus, and only through Jesus.  God wants you just as you are, even with your doubts.  Are you ready to accept Christ into your life?

ATHEIST:  I don't know.  Seems like I'm missing something here.  Let's just talk for a bit more.

ME:  Cool.  What else is on your mind?  I'll chat about this as long as you'd like.


Reader:  Ready for the next part?  NEXT >>

Conversation with an Atheist (Part 4 of ?)

ME:  "So, the fundamentals.  Let me take a minute to explain what we actually believe, if you don't mind?"

ATHEIST:  "Go for it."

ME:  "Alright, in your personal opinion, what do you think it takes for a person to get to go to heaven when they die?"

ATHEIST:  "Well - assuming their even IS a heaven [smirk], I guess I'd have to say that you need to live a good life, do good things, give to the poor, be nice ... generally do more good things than bad things."

ME:  "What if I told you that there are a quite a few criminals and murderers in heaven and many really "good" people (by our worldly standards) in hell?"

ATHEIST:  "I'd say that sucks.  I'd say that isn't fair.  I'd say that can't be right."

ME:  "And for 38 years, I would have agreed wholeheartedly with you.  But I wasn't looking at it from God's perspective.  Basically, I was thinking that my perspective mattered most.  It was actually pretty arrogant thinking in retrospect.  I - the creation - was somehow smarter and wiser than the Creator?  Bottom line, you can do all the right things and still go to hell.  And you can do all the wrong things and still go to heaven.  THAT'S reality. Turns out, it has less to do with our good works and everything to do with our faith.  In fact, works without faith is literally worthless, and - just as important - faith without works is dead."

ATHEIST:  "You're going to have to explain this a bit more.  That makes zero sense.  In fact, it sounds absolutely wrong on so many levels."

ME:  "There are a few basic things to understand:

1. We're guilty.  No getting around it.  God laid out some laws and we couldn't or wouldn't follow them.  Not just the 10 Commandments, but other laws laid out in the Old Testament.  It says in the New Testament that Jesus did not come to abolish the laws, but to fulfill the law.  Jesus himself actually said that.  And like I said earlier, he clarified God's laws in some distinct ways, like saying that envying someone else's things, even if only in our minds, was stealing.  He used the word "fulfill" - that's important.  I'll come back to that.  But God takes sin very seriously ... the wages (what we owe) for sin (our coming short of following the law) is death (both physical and spiritual).  That's pretty serious.
2. No one is good by Him.  We throw around the word "good" so loosely today that we've lost what it means.  It used to mean "perfect", in essence.  You asked before, "Why do I need a god to be good?"  The answer is, you can't be good with or without God.  Not on your own.  You and I have probably sinned in some way at least 50 times each just this morning.  Things you wouldn't say are sin or "all that bad" are extremely bad to God.  And He won't stand for it.  Have you been even slightly angry with anyone today?  Sin.  Have you been even slightly untruthful with anyone?  Sin.  Have you peered at a woman with even a glimmer of hunger?  Sin.  Only He is perfect.  Only He is good.  He came and lived a life as a human to show how it's done, but also to die for our sins, not His.  He could only do that if He had never sinned.  He was the "sacrificial lamb" that represented the last sacrifice needed.  When He died, he cried out, "It is finished!"  No one is good but Him.
3. He offers an incredible, free gift.  Why did Jesus have to die on a cross, you wondering.  He died for us.  The gift God offers is this:  Trust in Me and you will be wiped clean, white as snow.  All that you've done?  Gone.  You are literally born again.  Not physically - because our physical bodies are completely temporary.  We are born brand new spiritually.  And when we believe on Him, God sees Jesus when He looks at us, because He fulfilled the law on our behalf.  As a result, God sees no sin, no fault in us.  Nada.  We are GOOD - but only good because Jesus Christ is in us and we are in Him.  This is where the term "born again Christian" comes from.  I know, I used to think that was just a synonym for "freak", too.  It comes down to whether we want to accept the gift or not.  It really is that simple.  If we reject it, so be it ... but we don't get God anymore once we die.  We've made that choice.  If we decide to accept it, we get all of His promises.  However, it must be a decision of the heart, not just of the mouth or of the head.  God knows our hearts and knows the fakers from the genuine article.
4. Jesus hated - I mean HATED - religious people.  He still does.  He called them thieves and vipers and whitewashed tombs (meaning they looked great on the outside, but were rotting corpses on the inside).  Religious people, following rules to get to heaven, are missing the point.  A change of heart leads to wanting to do good things, like you might want to do nice things for your wife because you love her and trust her.  However, doing good things does not really lead to a changed heart.  Hanging curtains for my wife does not make me love her.  I love her, so I hang curtains for her.  God knows the difference and cares about the heart and the heart only.
5. We have free will.  We can choose to accept Him and drop our plans for His ... OR ... we can choose our own plans.  In essence, the choice is God's way or your/my way.  With God or without God.  God doesn't really send anyone to hell.  In fact, He doesn't want anyone to go there.  He wants them to come to Him ... to live a life that He knows (because He's infinitely wiser than we are) is our best possible life ... the one He created for us to live out.  And His plan is FAR better than one based on our ideas.  So in the end WE send ourselves to to hell for eternity, or we choose to spend eternity with Him in perfect bliss - no more tears, no more pain.  Joy.  We can talk in more depth later as to why He gives us free will, but it really comes down to relationships.  How many loving relationships start with one person forcing another person to love them?  Spoiler - the answer is zero.  For a real relationship, there must be a choice.  God knows this because He created love.  He IS love.
6. All you have to do is make a choice.  You don't have to understand it all yet.  You don't have to be perfect.  He wants you just as you are.  He loves you.  You'll never be perfect, so stop trying.  Just come as you are, drop the pride, and pray to accept Jesus into your life with a sincere prayer.  That's the first step on a long journey.  A journey worthy of traveling.
7. Pray this prayer:  "God, I'm done with believing I've got it all under control by myself.  I am a sinner, no matter how good of a guy I think I am.  I need to be saved and I'm ready to give up control and pass control of my life to you.  I believe you are good and you know what's best for me.  I'm ready to start living the life You have planned for me.  I pray this in the name of Jesus.  Amen."

ATHEIST:  "That's it?  Just a simple prayer like that and I'm in heaven when I die?"

ME:  "Yes."

ATHEIST:  "What about the guy with his fingers crossed as he says it, not meaning a word of it?  He gets off scott free?"

ME:  "The prayer and the prayee both know if it's genuine.  It's not for me or you to determine if someone else has or hasn't accepted Jesus.  That is always between them and God."

ATHEIST:  "Man, I feel like I'm being duped here.  It can't be that easy."

ME:  "Easy?  No.  Simple?  Yes.  Nobody's life is absolutely easy.  Believing and having eternal life does not mean you'll never have troubles again.  You just have something to make sense of it - to stay joyful during a storm in life.  And - most importantly - you will have a new life."

ATHEIST:  "I'm still not completely getting the new life thing."

ME:  "Let's talk about that.  But first, I'm hungry - want to order something?"

ATHEIST:  "Sure.  I could eat some chicken.  You paying?"

Reader:  Continue?  Next >> 

Conversation with an Atheist (Part 3 of ?)

ATHEIST:  "Alright - no evading the slavery question.  You can't deny that people who said they were Christians owned slaves.  And they thought that was okay because the Bible says it's okay.  How do you answer THAT one?"

William Wilburforce,

leader of the movement to

abolish the slave trade

ME:  "Yeah - no denying Christians owned slaves.  And many of them most definitely used the Bible to justify it.  Truth is, though, they were wrong ... and the Bible - in actuality - does NOT support slavery, although it does discuss it and provides direction for those who were servants and slaves.  That's not the first time a book as influential as the Bible has been twisted to meet someone's desires.  Both Christians AND non-Christians have been guilty of this.  Again, it's a flawed human thing, but that does not excuse Christians who were slave owners.  However, it was Christians, like William Wilberforce, who fought against the slave trade as a result of his conversion to Christianity.  His newfound faith is what drove him to right this wrong.  Now - to address what the Bible says.  There are verses all over the Bible that address, refer to, and advise those in servitude.  Some of the slavery (like the Jews enslaved in Egypt) was full on slavery.  Some of it was servitude, many (I'll venture most) times voluntary, for various reasons (e.g. a person owed something to another, so they gave themselves and their service for a period to pay that debt).  That said, scripture definitely acknowledges that there was, in fact, slavery (as well as murder and other horrible things) and those who were in that position could better their situation, or show Christ in themselves, or remove the mental burden of their situation through thinking differently, being thankful to God even in their tough situation.  In any situation, despite the gravity of any situation we're in, we have a choice to be content and be joyful, or to wallow in our misery and worsen the situation.  Keep in mind, God never promises an easy life.  He knows bad things will happen to us because sin is in the world (not His choice and not His doing).  But he knows what is best for us as we go through these things.  He is with us, crying with us for a time, then lifting us up ... I know, I know - you're a long way off from believing that."

ATHEIST:  "I don't know.  I guess I can understand that.  He's like a good father who can't take the pain away when his child goes through something really hard.  And he knows that - if his child it to learn and grow - he can't take his child out of the situation every time.  They need to experience seemingly bad things in order to grow.  Like muscle being torn in order to become stronger.  In retrospect, we learn that the "bad things" actually were the best things to ever happen to us.  If they hadn't happened, certain good things couldn't have happened.  We can see the design after the fact.  Of course, this is all assuming that God even exists.  I'm just saying, I get it."

ME:  "Couldn't have said it better.  And slavery seems pretty horrible.  Lots of horrible things happen in this world, though.  Some even worse, but I don't even like to think about those."

ATHEIST:  "Okay, I said I'd let you get back to your fundamentals, but that is one thing I've got to know ... How could there be a God that is presumably all-powerful who would allow sex trafficking, rape, beheadings, kiddie porn.  He's either not doing anything because he's not all-powerful, not good, or simply not there."

ME:  "That's a tough one, but there are answers.  Honestly, though, I don't have a lot of those answers.  No one does ... no one but Him.  I read an awesome book last year called "If God is Good" by Randy Alcorn.  The subtitle is "Faith in the Midst of Suffering and Evil".  Keep in mind, God does not MAKE bad things happen.  Although he may allow them to happen to serve a greater plan that we just don't understand.  He makes good things out of even the worst situations.

STILL ME:  Here's a really good analogy I heard that may give you a feel for why some "bad" things happen:  A bear is trapped in a bear trap in the woods.  Why is he trapped in a bear trap?  Because sin is in the world and - as a result - bad things happen.  It's not the bear's fault, so it's not HIS sin that caused it necessarily.  Anyway, some hikers come along and see the bear trapped.  They want to help and approach the bear.  From the bear's limited perspective, he's already in agony and scared silly.  THEN, some humans are approaching ... another horrible thing.  Potentially worse.  He feels threatened and is terrified.  Now, a bear trap works based on a concept only humans might understand.  You actually have to push a limb FURTHER into the trap to release it.  Doing this, though, makes the bear believe that the hikers are trying to further hurt the bear - even kill him.  So, are any of the things the hikers did for the bear bad, in reality?  No - they were helping ... and eventually they freed the bear.  But the bear never understood that, did he?  Because he's a bear.  A bear can't understand what a human understands.  Now, IF there is a God who has infinite power and wisdom, can we assume that his intelligence and understanding is even further above ours than ours is above that bear?  Maybe, no matter how horrible WE think something is, there is a reason that we just don't have the capacity to understand.  Again, I'm not saying I fully understand the horrors of this world, but I do trust God, and I know that He is good and He has a plan that has already played out.  You see - He's outside of time, so He's in the past, right here in the present, and He's in the future ... at the end of time."

ATHEIST:  "Wow - I've never thought about it that way.  Love that analogy.  I may have to read that book.  I mean - well, if I really consider looking into this and all."

ME:  "Of course.  So, back to the fundamentals, cool?"

ATHEIST:  "I'm in this deep, might as well go further.  If nothing else, I'll have a story to tell my friends about almost getting brain washed by a Christian.  Heh."

ME:  "I'm hoping for better than that, but I'm not expecting anything.  Thanks again for talking as much time as you have.  Great questions."

Reader:  Continue?  Next >>

Conversation with an Atheist (Part 2 of ?)

ATHEIST:  "Okay, so if Jesus was really even a person that existed in the first place, who says he's the son of God?  Maybe he was just some whack-job, or a liar or some magician who fooled people."

ME:  "Well, we haven't established that there really IS a God in our conversation, yet, but I'll address this one out of order.  First, you're right about one thing:  Either Jesus WAS a liar, a lunatic or the actual Messiah - the Son of God.  By the way, He also was God Himself - the 2nd person of the trinity.  One God, three persons.  He made direct claims to be God, so you have to choose.  Best to have all the info before deciding on that one, though.  Second, Jesus most definitely lived on earth, did the things that he was documented to have done, died on a cross, and rose from the dead.  This is shown in both Christian documentation, as well as secular and other religious-based documentation of the time.  Jesus' time on earth is actually more historically accurate and factual than almost any other historical series of events of that approximate era.  It is fact."

ATHEIST:  "Well, Muslims say he's a prophet at best, and never really died on the cross.  He either never died OR the person on the cross wasn't really him, but just looked like him."

ME:  "I've heard that claim, too.  But it's completely bogus.  First off, Islam did not even come about until approximately 600 years after Christ died on the cross.  600 years.  We start doubting the credibility of historical events even after 200 years.  Second, this comes from a single "prophet" called Muhammed who went into a cave, was apparently visited by the arch-angel Gabriel, and told him all of what Muslims believe.  Not saying it's dead wrong, but taking his word on it ... a guy who killed his son to have sex with his son's wife?  A guy who changed the Qu'ran from peaceful passages that ultimately became violent "kill all those who won't convert to Islam" passages?  (Check out this vid for some other little publicized factoids about Islam)  Finally, there were witnesses, things done to Jesus that make it impossible (not implausible, but impossible) for him to have survived, etc."

ATHEIST:  "Well, I have more questions about that, but I'll wait until we get there, I guess.  What's next?  You going to tell me how the Easter Bunny is real?"

ME:  "Hey - I'm cool talking about this, but let's keep it respectful, cool?"

ATHEIST:  "Cool.  Sorry - just kidding."

ME:  "So we left off with an Intelligent Creator who must have started everything based on the complexity of the creation.  Something can not come from nothing.  Every effect has a cause, and the original effect had to have been started from outside the system."

ATHEIST:  "Right."

ME:  "Let's move on to life from non-life.  You mentioned evolution.  Cool theory with a lot of weight and scientific study behind it.  By the way, it's still just a THEORY, even though the secular scientific community has dropped the "theory of" language along with statements that begin with "we now believe".  Makes it sound like absolute fact, coupled with offering no other alternatives, doesn't it?  I digress.  Life.  Let's start with the most simple life form - the single-celled organism.  This life form is an inconsequential fraction of the complexity of a human, but even so, it is an incredibly complex machine.  Starting with protons and neutrons, with electrons circling that nucleus in perfect precision.  Tied to millions of other atoms making up that cell.  It's amazing to think about it.  Saying that this thing came from non-life?  It does not matter the combination of chemicals, minerals and pixie dust ... life does not come from non-life.  It just doesn't.  How did that "first life" happen?  And when have you seen an explosion create something complex?  Explosions actually reduce complexity."

ATHEIST:  "Okay, that kind of makes sense, but what about DNA - the intelligence of life?  That had to have come from millions of years of evolution."

ME:  "It could have, but with a probability that asymptotically is approaching zero.  You see, even with that simplest life form, the intelligence within it - if written down - would equal enough encyclopedias of unique and complex information to horizontally stack up all the way to the moon.  I know - amazing.  Scientists have documented this.  In fact, all of what I'm saying is directly from science, not the Bible necessarily."

ATHEIST:  "Yeah - I've noticed that.  You haven't quoted me one Bible verse yet.  Usually I talk to Christians who just use church words and seem to believe this stuff blindly."

ME:  "Unfortunately, many probably do believe it all blindly.  However, they aren't any different from anyone else.  Many people - believers, atheists, et al - sometimes just believe what we've been told and don't look into it ourselves.  In fact, have you ever done any scientific experimentation yourself?  Or have you simply believed the scientific community blindly?  Not saying they are trying to pull a fast one - just trying to get you to see the irony.  Any scientist is a person - and that person comes with certain biases.  One may start with the belief that God does not exist, so he must figure out how things happened without a God.  Another scientist may start with a belief in God, and - from there - determine how God created.  You end up with different results."

ATHEIST:  "Interesting - hadn't ever thought of it that way.  Still not convinced, but I'm appreciating the perspective here.  Let's keep rolling."

ME:  "Cool.  Thanks for being open to the discussion.  So many simply don't want to hear it.  They are so afraid of being duped and subsequently embarrassed that they won't listen to logic.  It's all pride at base.  But God calls us to humble ourselves and seek Him with an honest, open heart."

ATHEIST:  "Okay - you just mentioned something I've always wondered about ... humility.  How come Christians act like they are so much better than everyone?"

ME:  "Again, fair.  There ARE many people (believers and non-believers who act that way).  No one should be that way, especially not Christians who are called to always have a servants heart.  My apologies for those Christians.  We are not better - not even by a smidge.  We simply understand that we're flawed and can't do it alone.  We need Christ to save us and to help us be what God created us to be."

ATHEIST:  With spirit:  "That's another one!  Servants!  Christians believe in slavery!  They justified it hundreds of years ago through the Bible!  Ha - explain that one!"

ME:  Chuckling:  "Okay, we'll discuss that one, too, but how are you doing on time?"

ATHEIST:  "I can keep talking.  This is actually pretty interesting.  No one has ever talked this through with me before.  Don't get me wrong - I'm not ready to become a Jesus freak, just interested in the conversation."

ME:  Smiling:  "No bible beating for you yet - got it.  Let's answer that last off-the-path question, then get back to the foundational stuff.  Cool?"

ATHEIST:  "Cool."


To the reader:  Willing to continue?  (Continue >>)

Conversation with an Atheist (Part 1 of ?)

ATHEIST:  "I'm an Atheist."

ME:  "Are you sure?  I mean, are you absolutely confident there is no chance there is a God?"

ATHEIST:  "Yes.  I mean, I was raised Catholic, but it never really made any sense to me.  Stand now, kneel now, now say this memorized thing.  Eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood?  Seems gross ... and ridiculous."

ME:  "I get that.  And I used to think exactly the same things.  I was a non-believer for 38 years, and I thought it was all blind faith, all legend and fairy tails ... I was just like you.  But something changed.  Are you open to talking about it?"

ATHEIST:  "Yeah - I guess.  You're not going to convince me."

ME:  "That's fine.  No one comes to Christ through debate or forced persuasion anyway.  It's got to be your choice to seek Him.  It actually says that in the Bible ... that once you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him."

ATHEIST:  "M'kay."  Slight roll of the eyes.  "So, let's start with why you guys hate gay people."

ME:  "That's not true, actually.  I know that seems to be the popular sentiment lately, but it's just not true.  I'm not saying there aren't self-professing Christians who show hate, but that is a human flaw, not a Christian belief.  God loves all people, regardless of how people might categorize them by their sin.  That said, God does include homosexuality in the big list of sins.  So, we're called to love - sometimes that means telling the truth about what God says on a given subject.  Not shoving it in their face, but stating truth when lies are being told.  He says things on a subject because He loves us and does not want us to get hurt by things we think may be okay for us.  He knows best, like the good Father He is."

ATHEIST:  "So, why do I need some god to be a good person?  I mean, I can say right now that I'm a better person that a lot of Christians I know."

ME:  "That's a good point.  You don't need a god to be a moral person.  You just don't have any reason to be good."

ATHEIST:  "Not sure I follow."

ME:  "Well, to have an objective view for what's good or bad, you need an objective measuring stick from someone outside the system.  It can't be one of us - Hitler's won't work for obvious reasons, for instance.  Each of us has a slightly different measure for good and bad.  The only one that can provide that objective measuring stick is the Creator of all of this.  If you don't have a Creator, then who's to say what is good or bad?  I mean, who are you to judge?  Where are you getting your measure?  There is no basis - no objective source."

ATHEIST:  "Okay - I guess.  I'm still not buying it.  Why do we need a God who created everything?  I think evolution and natural science takes care of that nicely."

ME:  "Does it?  Let me ask just a few fundamental questions.  First, how did it all start?  I mean, how did something come from absolutely nothing?  Scientists have proven that the universe had an absolute beginning, and before that neither matter nor time existed.  So, how did that happen?  Before you say, Stephen Hawking says because of gravity, we have a universe that can create itself out of necessity, think about that.  That is circular and highly flawed reasoning.  I know he's mega-mind smart, but it still is circular - meaning "the universe created itself because it needed to create itself?"

ATHEIST:  "Outside of that and what I've seen on Cosmos, I guess I don't know.  But that doesn't automatically mean some God created it.  It could have been anything."

ME:  "Okay - let's go with that.  Whatever the anything is, can we agree that it had to have been (1) outside of space and time and (2) highly intelligent to have created this universe, stars, planets, animals, plants and us?  Does all of this have the necessary complexity to necessitate an Intelligent Creator of some kind?  Again, I don't mean to leap ahead and state that this is the Judeo-Christian God or Jesus ... just that it was an Intelligent Creator."

ATHEIST:  "I don't know.  I suppose, but you have a long way to go before we're at 'a dude named Jesus was God and is the only way'."

ME:  "Fair, but we'll get there.  Would you say, though, that there is a possibility that an Intelligent Creator exists?  Is it possible?"

ATHEIST:  "I guess."

ME:  "Okay, then you are not an Atheist, but an Agnostic."

ATHEIST:  "Fine - I'm an Agnostic."

ME:  "Willing to continue?"

ATHEIST:  "Yeah, if I can ask a few questions before we do."

ME:  "Cool.  Shoot."

... To be continued.

Question for the reader:  Are YOU willing to continue? (Continue >>)

Proverbs 30

Proverbs 30:1-33

The words of Agur son of Jakeh. The oracle.

The man declares, I am weary, O God;

I am weary, O God, and worn out.

Surely I am too stupid to be a man.

I have not the understanding of a man.

I have not learned wisdom,

nor have I knowledge of the Holy One.

• ​We've all been there.  Some of us are currently there.  Weary.  Worn out by life and our circumstances. 
• We feel like failures.  Stupid.  Incapable.  Self-deprecating to an illogical point, based on how we "feel".
• We've been studying James 3:13-17 where he differentiates between knowledge and wisdom, as well as God's wisdom versus the world's wisdom that is shoved down our throat daily.
• Do we know?  Or are we wise?  It's the difference between head knowledge and heart wisdom.

Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered the wind in his fists?

Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment?

Who has established all the ends of the earth?

What is his name, and what is his son's name?

Surely you know!

• ​Answer key:  God/Jesus, God/Jesus, God/Jesus, God/Jesus, God/Jesus.  
• This is Old Testament!  It's talking about Jesus!  The only begotten Son of God!

Every word of God proves true;

he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

• ​Do you believe that?  That every word of God proves true?  What about some scientific findings that seem to contradict scripture?  Answer:  Scientists are taking educated guesses.  Every word 

Do not add to his words,

lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

• ​Funny how this absolutely happens every day.  We take God's word out of context to fit the way we want it to be.  
• It's like putting ketchup on a perfectly cooked and seasoned steak.  Leave it alone - let scripture rest on it's own, whether we like it at a given point in our lives or not.  It's absolute, objective Truth.

Two things I ask of you;

deny them not to me before I die:

Remove far from me falsehood and lying;

give me neither poverty nor riches;

feed me with the food that is needful for me,

lest I be full and deny you

and say, “Who is the Lord?”

or lest I be poor and steal

and profane the name of my God.

• ​God, help me to avoid lying and falsehood in my life.  And help me to discern and not be fooled by the lies of this world.  Let me rest only in your constant and unchanging truth.
• God give me ONLY what I need, not what I want.  If I have too little, I might do things (steal, etc.) that is displeasing to God.  If I have too much, I may think that I don't need God.  Either way, not good.  
• Give us this day our daily bread.  No more, no less.

Do not slander a servant to his master,

lest he curse you, and you be held guilty.

• ​Never disparage a servant (employee) to his master (a boss, parent, etc.), or he'll curse you (wish you ill, say bad things about you, actually curse at you), and you'll deserve it.
• In fact, don't say anything bad about someone.  Keep it to yourself.  Only build up, never tear down.

There are those who curse their fathers

and do not bless their mothers.

• ​There is a command for this.  Honor your father and mother.  
• It's like biting the hand that feeds you.  They may have done less than you expected, but they did what they were capable of, given their flaws.  They are sinners, fallen just like you.
• Bless them by making them proud.  Respect them.  Love them as you wish to be loved.

There are those who are clean in their own eyes

but are not washed of their filth.

• ​I just started wearing glasses.  Amazing how often everything looks fine, until I take off the glasses and see the dirt and smudges all over my glasses.  And they're right here in front of my face!
• Sometimes we just don't see our own flaws, our own filth.
• So, lean not on your own understanding of "clean", but on God's.  Only then will you see the dirt and filth you could not see on your own.

There are those—how lofty are their eyes,

how high their eyelids lift!

• I don't know how to put this, but I'm kind of a big deal.  People know me.  I'm very important.  I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgandy
• Pride is the basis of most sin.  Humble yourself as Christ did for us.

There are those whose teeth are swords,

whose fangs are knives,

to devour the poor from off the earth,

the needy from among mankind.

• ​There is evil.  No denying it.  We want to believe that people are inherently good.  I know I do.  But we aren't.  Not on our own.
• And there are those who are so evil, so perverse, so off the path that they have no compassion.  They wish the poor would just go away and stop making them feel so guilty.  Or worse, they may not care at all, building up their own store-houses of stuff, yelling "Mine!"
• Don't be that guy.  (Response:  Thanks, Captain Obvious)

The leech has two daughters:

Give and Give.

• ​Many feel entitled.  Parents have created these monsters.  Our government has not helped either.
• Think if you give when they don't really need that that will be the end of it?  Don't count on it.  They just found one of their "marks".
• That said, give the first time anyway.  What?  Yes - give.  Let God worry about the rest.  Greg's thoughts (not necessarily God's):  When they come again, don't give.  That is the loving thing to do.  Hand UPs, not hand OUTs.

Three things are never satisfied;

four never say, “Enough”:

Sheol, the barren womb,

the land never satisfied with water,

and the fire that never says, “Enough.”

• ​"Enough is Never Enough"  - Spuddy-Buddies tagline
• Our hunger - we feed it, it comes back three ours later.
• Our lustful desires - quench them and we want more.  
• Our desire for wealth - it never ends.
• "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoeve drinks the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become a well of water springing up to eternal life." John 4:13-14

The eye that mocks a father

and scorns to obey a mother

will be picked out by the ravens of the valley

and eaten by the vultures.

• ​Tough truth, but true none-the-less.  Without Jesus, you will pay for your sins.  Every roll of the eye, every disrespectful word to your parents ... God sees and hears and will "re-pay".
• He is a good Judge.  He can not let sin pass without judgement.  That would not be right, would it?

Three things are too wonderful for me;

four I do not understand:

the way of an eagle in the sky,

the way of a serpent on a rock,

the way of a ship on the high seas,

and the way of a man with a virgin.

• ​Some things from God are just too wonderful to comprehend.  We don't fully appreciate them because we've become used to them.  But they are amazing.  
• How the human eye works with light and images and focus and color and motion ... wow.
• How the trees give us what we need and we give them what they need ... precision.
• Just how far the stars are from us - light years.  That means most of the stars we see right now actually burnt out thousands or even millions of years ago ... wrap your head around that.  
• God is bigger and more amazing that we can possibly fathom with our tiny little brains.

This is the way of an adulteress:

she eats and wipes her mouth

and says, “I have done no wrong.”

• ​Unrepentant.  That's the word for it.  As a young Christian (not young in age, but in maturity), I did not know what "repent" meant really.  It means to realize and acknowledge that something is wrong, displeasing to God, then to turn away from it.  
• The God can forgive a repentant heart ... one that is actually sorry for what they've done and is trying to turn and run from it.
• But for the person who sins, knows that it is sin, and does not repent of it?  What is God to do with that?

Under three things the earth trembles;

under four it cannot bear up:

a slave when he becomes king,

and a fool when he is filled with food;

an unloved woman when she gets a husband,

and a maidservant when she displaces her mistress.

• ​The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.  Psalm 118:22
• Jesus has become "the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone." Acts 4:11
• He without sin became sin for us.
• The first shall be last.
• The meek shall inherit the earth.
• When I am weak, I am strong.

Four things on earth are small,

but they are exceedingly wise:

the ants are a people not strong,

yet they provide their food in the summer;

the rock badgers are a people not mighty,

yet they make their homes in the cliffs;

the locusts have no king,

yet all of them march in rank;

the lizard you can take in your hands,

yet it is in kings' palaces.

• ​Size means nothing.  Strength is meaningless.  Height - who cares?  We're all minuscule in comparison to our infinite God and his massive creation.
• What matters is wisdom.  Do we have God's wisdom in us?  In our hearts?  That is what can move mountains.

Three things are stately in their tread;

four are stately in their stride:

the lion, which is mightiest among beasts

and does not turn back before any;

the strutting rooster, the he- goat,

and a king whose army is with him.

• ​Are we (God's army) with Him?  Or will we cower when the world throws arrows at us?
• Do we trust Him, or do we waver with what the world wants to tell us?
• When it comes down to it, do we fear God?  Or do we fear man?

If you have been foolish, exalting yourself,

or if you have been devising evil,

put your hand on your mouth.

• ​Acknowledge it, stop, repent.  Repeat.

For pressing milk produces curds,

pressing the nose produces blood,

and pressing anger produces strife.

• ​Stop poking the hornets' nest.  What are you trying to prove?  What do you expect will happen?
• Be kind.  Don't cause others to stumble.  Choose love over being "right".  God could have said, "forget these guys ... they're never going to get it."  But He didn't.  He chose to put aside righteous judgement and pay our debt FOR us.  We own Him everything for that.