Conversation with an Atheist (Part 3 of ?)

ATHEIST:  "Alright - no evading the slavery question.  You can't deny that people who said they were Christians owned slaves.  And they thought that was okay because the Bible says it's okay.  How do you answer THAT one?"

William Wilburforce,

leader of the movement to

abolish the slave trade

ME:  "Yeah - no denying Christians owned slaves.  And many of them most definitely used the Bible to justify it.  Truth is, though, they were wrong ... and the Bible - in actuality - does NOT support slavery, although it does discuss it and provides direction for those who were servants and slaves.  That's not the first time a book as influential as the Bible has been twisted to meet someone's desires.  Both Christians AND non-Christians have been guilty of this.  Again, it's a flawed human thing, but that does not excuse Christians who were slave owners.  However, it was Christians, like William Wilberforce, who fought against the slave trade as a result of his conversion to Christianity.  His newfound faith is what drove him to right this wrong.  Now - to address what the Bible says.  There are verses all over the Bible that address, refer to, and advise those in servitude.  Some of the slavery (like the Jews enslaved in Egypt) was full on slavery.  Some of it was servitude, many (I'll venture most) times voluntary, for various reasons (e.g. a person owed something to another, so they gave themselves and their service for a period to pay that debt).  That said, scripture definitely acknowledges that there was, in fact, slavery (as well as murder and other horrible things) and those who were in that position could better their situation, or show Christ in themselves, or remove the mental burden of their situation through thinking differently, being thankful to God even in their tough situation.  In any situation, despite the gravity of any situation we're in, we have a choice to be content and be joyful, or to wallow in our misery and worsen the situation.  Keep in mind, God never promises an easy life.  He knows bad things will happen to us because sin is in the world (not His choice and not His doing).  But he knows what is best for us as we go through these things.  He is with us, crying with us for a time, then lifting us up ... I know, I know - you're a long way off from believing that."

ATHEIST:  "I don't know.  I guess I can understand that.  He's like a good father who can't take the pain away when his child goes through something really hard.  And he knows that - if his child it to learn and grow - he can't take his child out of the situation every time.  They need to experience seemingly bad things in order to grow.  Like muscle being torn in order to become stronger.  In retrospect, we learn that the "bad things" actually were the best things to ever happen to us.  If they hadn't happened, certain good things couldn't have happened.  We can see the design after the fact.  Of course, this is all assuming that God even exists.  I'm just saying, I get it."

ME:  "Couldn't have said it better.  And slavery seems pretty horrible.  Lots of horrible things happen in this world, though.  Some even worse, but I don't even like to think about those."

ATHEIST:  "Okay, I said I'd let you get back to your fundamentals, but that is one thing I've got to know ... How could there be a God that is presumably all-powerful who would allow sex trafficking, rape, beheadings, kiddie porn.  He's either not doing anything because he's not all-powerful, not good, or simply not there."

ME:  "That's a tough one, but there are answers.  Honestly, though, I don't have a lot of those answers.  No one does ... no one but Him.  I read an awesome book last year called "If God is Good" by Randy Alcorn.  The subtitle is "Faith in the Midst of Suffering and Evil".  Keep in mind, God does not MAKE bad things happen.  Although he may allow them to happen to serve a greater plan that we just don't understand.  He makes good things out of even the worst situations.

STILL ME:  Here's a really good analogy I heard that may give you a feel for why some "bad" things happen:  A bear is trapped in a bear trap in the woods.  Why is he trapped in a bear trap?  Because sin is in the world and - as a result - bad things happen.  It's not the bear's fault, so it's not HIS sin that caused it necessarily.  Anyway, some hikers come along and see the bear trapped.  They want to help and approach the bear.  From the bear's limited perspective, he's already in agony and scared silly.  THEN, some humans are approaching ... another horrible thing.  Potentially worse.  He feels threatened and is terrified.  Now, a bear trap works based on a concept only humans might understand.  You actually have to push a limb FURTHER into the trap to release it.  Doing this, though, makes the bear believe that the hikers are trying to further hurt the bear - even kill him.  So, are any of the things the hikers did for the bear bad, in reality?  No - they were helping ... and eventually they freed the bear.  But the bear never understood that, did he?  Because he's a bear.  A bear can't understand what a human understands.  Now, IF there is a God who has infinite power and wisdom, can we assume that his intelligence and understanding is even further above ours than ours is above that bear?  Maybe, no matter how horrible WE think something is, there is a reason that we just don't have the capacity to understand.  Again, I'm not saying I fully understand the horrors of this world, but I do trust God, and I know that He is good and He has a plan that has already played out.  You see - He's outside of time, so He's in the past, right here in the present, and He's in the future ... at the end of time."

ATHEIST:  "Wow - I've never thought about it that way.  Love that analogy.  I may have to read that book.  I mean - well, if I really consider looking into this and all."

ME:  "Of course.  So, back to the fundamentals, cool?"

ATHEIST:  "I'm in this deep, might as well go further.  If nothing else, I'll have a story to tell my friends about almost getting brain washed by a Christian.  Heh."

ME:  "I'm hoping for better than that, but I'm not expecting anything.  Thanks again for talking as much time as you have.  Great questions."

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